The language experts from maslansky + partners take on the smartest, savviest, and sometimes stupidest messages in the market today. CEO Michael Maslansky and President Lee Carter bring their experience with words, communication, and behavioral science to the table — along with a colleague or two — and offer up a “lay of the language.” Their insight helps make sense of business, life, and culture, and proves over and over again that It’s Not What You Say, It’s What They Hear™.

Michael and Lee are joined by colleague Sachi Pettit in a conversation about when companies should speak out and what it takes to be a leader, especially on difficult issues. They talk about confronting racism, equality, and how to find common ground even when it seems impossible.  They talk about specific case studies from Proctor & Gamble and a project where they found a way to engage even the most skeptical audiences in the climate movement.

Listen below or on your preferred streaming platform:

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW

Lee Carter’s book, Persuasion

Michael Maslansky’s book, The Language of Trust

maslansky + partners newsletter

P&G’s “The Talk” ad

EPISODE 4 TRANSCRIPT:

Michael Maslansky:
They said what? Welcome to Hearsay. A podcast from the language strategists at maslansky + partners, where we provide our take on the smartest, savviest and stupidest messages in the market today, and what you can learn from their experience. Our philosophy is, “It’s not what you say. It’s what they hear.” And that’s why we call this Hearsay. I’m Michael Maslansky. My name’s on the door, and I’ve been doing this a long time. I even wrote a book called the Language of Trust. Communication has always been a fascinating puzzle for me, and I’m here to share some stories with you.

Lee Carter:
Okay. So I’m Lee Carter and I’ve always been obsessed with the power of language and the power of messaging on people’s beliefs going back as far as I can remember.  I’m also the author of a book called Persuasion: Convincing Others When Facts Don’t Seem to Matter.” And I believe that sometimes it’s as important to emotionally connect through the effective use of language than it is to have all the facts on your side.

Michael Maslansky:
So Lee, today we’re going to talk about the challenges that companies when they are faced with issues, either internal or external about the topics that are going on in the news and whether or not they need to speak out when they need to speak out, most importantly how they need to speak out in order to take advantage of the potential opportunities and avoid the risks of saying the wrong thing. But before we get into that, I think we have to start with the question of, can you be silent today? Or when issues emerge, do you have to have something to say?

Lee Carter:
I think there’s no doubt about it, that the answer is no organization can afford to be silent today. We’ve been talking about this for a while on issues that often were political. Companies need to take a stand. The companies are actually the most trusted place for information, and it’s a place where we can have the biggest impact. We expect change to happen in business today. Companies can’t afford to be silent and they can’t wait to stand up. I think they have to say something. They have to say something quickly as issues emerge more and more. And we’ve seen this in everything from how companies are communicating about what they’re doing around COVID to how companies are taking a stand around Black lives matter since the murder of George Floyd and beyond. But a company can not afford to be silent anymore.

Michael Maslansky:
I think it’s interesting that we’ve seen a flip in the risk calculus for companies. So many of the questions that we would get from clients in the past, it was, “Can we just stay silent and hope that this goes away?” The least risky alternative was to say nothing. And now, I agree with you. I think we’re at a point where… In some ways the riskiest thing to do is to say nothing because you may fall behind and get caught up in a storm, or you may just be perceived as being complicit in whatever it is that somebody is accusing you of.  And as we were talking about how best to tackle this subject, we wanted to get some help. And so we’ve reached out to our colleague, Sachi Pettit, who is a vice-president with maslansky + partners and has a lot of experience in helping companies figure out what issues to take on and how to do it. So Sachi, welcome to Hearsay.

Sachi Pettit:
Hi, Lee. Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me.

Michael Maslansky:
Well, it’s good to have you here. So we were just covering the question of whether or not you can be silent? And if you can’t be silent as we’ve just talked about, the question is how do you know what issues to take a stand on? You can’t possibly have something to say about everything. So how do you know what to take a stand on?

Sachi Pettit:
Yeah, I think it’s such a great question and one our clients are constantly grappling with themselves. I think it’s super important to know the why. So if you are looking at certain issues that are coming up to know why you want to take a stand in the first place. And I think that comes down to knowing what your objective is. And there’s a few different reasons you could want to take a stand.  So the first is, if you want to be a leader. This is a more proactive approach where you’ve already come together as a company, have a strategy and know that there are certain issues that you fundamentally care about and want to lead on. The second is reacting to a situation. So what we saw is with the outcry after the murder of George Floyd, companies needed to stand up and voice that the pain and frustration around Black lives matter. So it’s reacting to a situation. And the third is really powerful, but when you care about an issue enough to not just lead on it, but look to create actual social change. So those are three of the things we often see and advise clients on when to take a stand.

Lee Carter:
And I love that, the difference you’re making between being a leader and to create social change. I think that’s an important distinction, right? Because what is really the difference there? And I think sometimes when we’re trying to be a leader, we’re preaching to the choir. But if you’re trying to create social change, and I think that there’s a huge opportunity to do that, it means reaching across the aisle, it means reaching out to people who might not agree with you and it means doing something that makes you really uncomfortable. And I think one thing that we all need to get comfortable with now, more than ever before, is getting comfortable being uncomfortable and putting ourselves in situations that you don’t necessarily expect yourself to be, and looking at things very, very differently.  And this is one area where I really think that companies can shine and have huge impact. Because there are so few places that we live right now where you’re with people who have different perspectives than you do. And work is one of those places where we’re forced together with people who might not agree with us. Our customer base might be different than we are. Our constituents might feel totally different on the issues than we do. And we have this platform and business to really be able to reach across and between and create a real meaningful change. It’s something I’m really excited and passionate about.

Michael Maslansky:
Those three categories are so important. I think probably for many clients, they wish it was so easy to decide which bucket that things fell into. But I think for most companies, the starting point is reacting to situations, right? We’re faced with so many different issues today and some of them are predictable and some of them aren’t. But the question is, what do you do? How do you know which issues that you have to react to and which ones you can hope that the news cycle moves on before you need to respond?

Sachi Pettit:
Yeah. I think that’s such a great point that kind of mapped out, it seems like there’s neater buckets. But in the moment it’s this feeling of like, “Oh, my gosh, what do we do? What do we say?” And I think that’s a moment where you need to be really clear around what’s your purpose around this, right? You need to be real about it. What do we have to say on this that comes from the heart in a way? Because if you’re just putting something out there to be seen as like, “Oh, I don’t want to be seen as not saying anything.” You need to evaluate that because everyone’s looking to companies to lead on this. We know the power that language has. This is some of the most important work we do, I believe, because language around issues can shape how people think about these issues, how they act on it, and how that effects our society at large. So long story short, you must say something if it’s an issue that directly impacts your employees or your customers. Very broad here, but that’s when you must say something because your silence will be shown as being complicit. Your silence will be interpreted negatively. It’s sending a message to be silent these days.

Lee Carter:
Yeah, I want to dig a little deeper on how you know if it impacts your customers or how it impacts your employees. Because I think there’s sometimes where it’s really, really clear. When you think back to some issues in the past where there’s been shooting, and you’re a company that sells guns, you have to quickly respond because it’s related to your business, your customers and the communities where you operate. Then there’s other issues where it’s not quite so clear. There’s the murder of George Floyd. And you think that you are doing all of the right things in your community, you’re outraged yourself. And yet you might not be aware of the pain that your employees are feeling, right? So what role do you have to play when it’s impacting your employees so much? And that means that it’s impacting you by default. So I think there’s some areas where it’s very, very clear and there’s other areas where it’s gray. But the issue you really have to do is say, “What is really going on with the people who matter most to us?” The people that are most to us, first are employees, what’s going on with them. Second, our customers, what’s going on with them. And then go at large to our communities and other areas as well.  And I think you really have to think and take stock on how personal of an issue is it to them, how does it impact them, what role do we have to play in this and what can we do about it? And then you have to take stock of a couple of things. Is this now just a time that we need to make a statement, so people have no question about where we stand and that we’re standing with them? Or then are we really going to use this opportunity as a point to pivot and become leaders or really make a difference in this moment? I think the first question is how much does it impact us? Do we need to say something? If the answer is yes, what’s your objective in doing so and then where do we go from there?

Michael Maslansky:
Yeah, I think for many companies, the first place to look is to your values. And this has been a time where I think companies have had to make a decision about whether the values that they have on the wall or in their annual report are real values that they’re willing to stand up for. There certainly are values that their employees are likely to hold them accountable for, and they provide a good initial filter about whether you need to respond, right? So if you value diversity, then an issue like George Floyd’s murder becomes much easier to recognize that you need to make a statement, or beyond a statement, take some action. If you are focused on any number of other values that may be implicated by an issue, it becomes easier to decide whether or not to respond based on that. Sometimes it’s not directly related to a value though and then it’s a more difficult question. If you’re not selling guns, do you respond to a shooting?  There are a lot of complicating factors. I guess one question is, does it just depend on the situation? Can you set any hard and fast rules on when to respond and when not to?

Lee Carter:
I think that one of the biggest shifts that we need to make is that the default needs to go, we must respond. Not the default goes, we must not respond. And I think that changes the way we view the things that happen around us. I think it changes the way that we engage with protests, elections, health crises, all of the crisis, the race crisis around us, the political crisis that are around us because companies can have an impact. And so I think instead of finding the shortest path between this happened and we say nothing, to this happened and we say something, should be the default. That we need to figure out how does it not make sense for us to say something?

Michael Maslansky:
George Floyd’s killing was a really horrible tragedy and an interesting example, because sadly it’s not the first time that something like that has happened. And yet there was something about this moment that made it very different from a company perspective or from the perspective of companies and individuals and everybody decided that this was a moment to speak out. I’m not sure I know what made this one… As horrible as it was, there’ve been many horrible situations before where people have not responded in the same way.

Lee Carter:
Similarly, you can say that about shootings, right?

Michael Maslansky:
Yeah.

Lee Carter:
Because Parkland is one where it really stands out, and then that same year there were six. And so which is the one that makes you take a stand?  There isn’t a clear cut answer, but you have to look at, I think, the intersection of the news story and the pulse of the people.

Michael Maslansky:
So we’ve talked about the fact that companies need to be prepared to react on a broader set of issues than ever before. And that the public may be looking to them, customers and employees. But things are changing too and more and more companies are seeing this not just as a moment to react, but Sachi as you said, to go out and be a leader. So what’s happening out there? When your goal is to be a leader on an issue, what are some of the key things that you think companies should think about? How do they do it in a way that will work for them?

Sachi Pettit:
A lot of companies when they look to lead, they’re looking at what’s their purpose, and when they have a clear purpose, what are the issues that intersect with that? A key thing here is choosing issues that are important to the people that matter most, your employees, your customers, and taking a stand on those issues. But setting aside tactics for a moment, also understanding why you’re taking a stand in the first place. What would the world look like if you were to come out and say, “This issue is really important, and we want to make sure that we’re putting our weight behind it as a leader.” And that’s where you should create messaging from. It’s from that place of really understanding what will the world look like if we go out there and put our voice behind this, use our platform. One example that comes to mind, Michael, you and I worked on this with P&G is the talk, which was really wonderful campaign that came out in 2017. And featured Black parents speaking to their children about racism. Back in 2017, this was bold. A lot of companies weren’t shining a light, specifically calling out bias and racism. But they knew that this is what they wanted to go out. So we helped them make sure that they were prepared to speak to criticism, to make sure they understood where they would be criticized if they were to launch this, knowing that any time you take a big stand on an issue that really matters, that’s uncomfortable and new, there’s going to be folks who aren’t on board.

Lee Carter:
So often when we’re preparing on what to say, what’s the right thing to say, we don’t often think about it from that perspective. I’d love to dig in a little bit more about how you not only prepare what to say, but also how to react for criticism. And when you look at it and you’re in the team, you’re in the room, you’re so excited to be a part of this, how do you then go and say, “What are the criticisms?” How do you prepare yourself for that? How do you look at things so that it can be delivered in the best way?

Michael Maslansky:
Well, I think to give credit where its due the teams that were responsible for the creative, did an incredible job, we came in afterwards very much as crisis managers to look at this from the risk perspective and say, “All right, you’ve decided to take this position. And you’re aware that anytime you take a strong position in today’s world, that there’s likely to be a fair amount of backlash. And so how do you prepare for it?”  What has happened to many companies in the past is they go out there either intentionally or unintentionally and say something, and there is any kind of backlash and they retreat. And I think more and more companies are recognizing today that no matter what you say, there’s going to be some percentage of the population that isn’t going to like it, and that you have to be ready for that. So the key is actually going out and testing for that. Presenting it to people who maybe opposed to it, may disagree with it. Hearing what their questions are, what their challenges are, what their objections are and being prepared to respond. And in that case, it not only gives the company lots of confidence because you’re prepared for the backlash before it happens. But it also allows you to weather a storm much more effectively than you would if you just hope that you don’t get a negative response to something that you do.

Lee Carter:
What I really want to understand is how. What can people do, and then what you do on the other side of it to make sure that you’re ready?

Sachi Pettit:
I think it’s being curious about how people will react and people that you may not be targeting with it. But as a big company, you have this big platform. Everyone is going to hear it. So getting curious about the folks that you think may not like it and thinking about what are their reactions going to be, or what criticisms might they have. And really plotting out these are the buckets that we think and creating messaging around those very much as how you would prepare for a crisis playbook. But going out there showing the creative, the campaign, and then seeing what naturally arises. Seeing how people are processing it on this gut emotional level, seeing where they direct any criticism, is it even at you or is it at other things at large? And just getting really curious and not thinking that we have all the answers before going out there and talking to folks maybe we normally wouldn’t consider at this stage.

Lee Carter:
So this is the opposite take of haters are going to hate. It’s actually saying, “We can prepare for the haters.”

Michael Maslansky:
In some ways it even goes beyond that. And that is that sometimes the haters can contribute to moving the conversation forward, right? So if you’re taking a stand on an issue, and it’s not that you want to create more of a backlash or a stronger response, but certainly there are advantages to that. If you believe really strongly that you’re on the right side of the issue and you want to communicate it in a way that you are willing to defend, then the fact that people have a negative reaction is really not always a bad thing particularly if you’re then ready to engage them in a conversation. I think we see lots of companies out there that are willing to take some of these risks because they either know their employees or they know their customers or they know both. And so they go out there and they want to be associated with this positive value, with this issue, with this topic. And they do it in a way that is deliberate and thought through. And I think the big difference between doing it the right way and doing it the way that maybe companies in the past have done, is that, this is something that senior senior leadership really has to understand in most cases. That the board of directors may need to be informed about. That you don’t want to call from a member of the board saying, “The hell are you doing? How could you go out and do this?” You want everybody to be in the tent to understand that the backlash is part of the process. It is an essential part of doing this and of taking a position. Certainly one of the things that we’re seeing out there is that brands are recognizing that it’s harder and harder to break through in this marketplace, that it’s harder and harder to create a distinct brand in the marketplace and really be competitive. And that in the absence of having pricing or benefits or other aspects of your product or service that really stand out on their own, that you have to find distinction someplace else. And one of the biggest areas to find that distinction today, to create an opportunity to break through and have a really powerful conversation with your customers is by taking a stand on an issue.

Sachi Pettit:
It’s not just about communication anymore in some instances, it’s about actually creating social change. When I think about climate change, I think about the opportunity there, we all talk internally about just the language issues around the word climate, and how people can hear that word so differently. So when we had the opportunity to work with a client on climate change, we decided that actually instead of just getting people who are already fired up, who are already going to champion climate solutions, let’s talk to the people that for the most part have not been included in strategy, the climate deniers. People who aren’t necessarily on board with even talking about climate change. Because this is where you can actually start to shift things a bit more. The strategy up until that point in our view is… When it comes to climate deniers, people shame them. That was the default strategy. But instead we start to see there might be a different opportunity. Can we welcome them in to maybe change their view or change how they think about the environment? I’ll be honest here. I and the team we weren’t so sure if we could change their minds, if we could find the right language to break through. But when we started to craft messaging, when we started to talk to folks who fall into this audience of not necessarily believing in climate change or supporting climate change policies or issues, we started to hear in the words they were saying to describe their community, to describe things like, “They’re bulldozing trees in my community to build buildings.” Or, “We need to protect our resources and be good stewards.” We started to hear that this wasn’t about convincing them that they needed to care about climate because they already have their reasons to care. It’s just not in the language of our values, it’s in the language of their values.
So I think when we’re able to go about listening to folks when we care about these issues, folks that we might already have a label for, might already have preconceived notions for, we’re actually able to see things from a different side. That is not necessarily about getting people who don’t believe in climate change that they’re wrong. That like, “Yes, climate change exists.” But it’s getting them to care for the reasons they already care about the environment, they care about these issues. And that’s the wriggle room we have there to move forward.

Lee Carter:
One of the things you said is, it’s not always about using that language of our values, it’s about using that language of theirs, and listening for that. So can you tell me a little bit more about how you approach listening for their language? How did you get to that place? Because, wait, I hear it. I hear what they’re saying and now I can turn that into a message that’s going to resonate.

Sachi Pettit:
Yeah, it’s interesting. We pride ourselves on being communicators but actually the skill that we’ve focused on is being listeners, trained listeners. You need to have empathy for people.  You be starting from a place of, “I can’t believe they don’t believe in climate change.” Even if that’s where you’re starting from you need to shift it around to really start to listen with empathy because then it opens up the door to hear all sorts of things, to find ways forward.

Lee Carter:
So many of our clients start the conversation, right, saying, “If they knew XYZ, then they would believe climate change is real. Then they would care about racial justice issues. If they just knew these three facts.” And often it’s just not knowing these three facts, it’s engaging in a totally different perspective.

Sachi Pettit:
Instead of making it so they can’t deny the problem, it was about making it so agreeing with the solutions. The things we actually care about when it comes to climate changes, what are the solutions? What are the things we need to do now? Making it to agreeing with the solutions doesn’t require them to admit they’re wrong. So in a way it’s really asking ourselves, what do we care more about? Do we care about being right or do we care about being effective, advancing an issue truly? And that’s where we were able to find common ground to find language that doesn’t give the folks who we’re talking to reasons to care, but really elevate the reasons they already care.

Michael Maslansky:
So often we believe that persuasion is about bulldozing people’s existing perceptions and replacing them with our beliefs, and that never works. It never changes people’s minds. It actually, psychologically, puts them in a position where they entrench themselves in their existing positions. No one likes being told that they’re wrong. As Sachi said, the flip is, how do you tell them that they’re right? And that this is more aligned with the things that they believe in than anything else. People on the conservative end of the spectrum, they love the earth, the planet, the way that everybody does. They just may experience it in a different way. And so once we heard them say that they want to be in their local community that wasn’t polluted, or they want to be able to fish in their lake. The question was, how could we tap into that in a way that would get them to relate to the issue?

Lee Carter:
This is a lesson that is so important for people to take away. That it’s not starting with what you want to say, it’s starting with what that person needs to hear.  You can engage the person you think you’ll never persuade. You don’t ignore the haters. You can actually engage the haters and really create meaningful change. And to me, that’s where leadership happens.

Michael Maslansky:
We know that as soon as you mentioned the word climate, you are going to have a tough time speaking to conservatives. But if you talk about extreme weather, which is really the impact of a changing climate. Well, everybody is experiencing more extreme weather and nobody likes the impact of extreme weather, certainly not on their community. And so if we’re protecting against extreme weather, you’re much more likely to get everybody on board than if you’re adapting to climate change. And so why wouldn’t we talk more about protecting against extreme weather?  You can broaden the conversation around something that otherwise would have just been much more polarized. And so I think one of the big things that we see when we see companies trying to insert themselves into a controversial situation, is that the language that they use is critically important so that it doesn’t get over politicized, that it doesn’t create more controversy than really what they want, that it doesn’t step in the middle of a fight that they don’t need to be a part of in order to make their point.

Lee Carter:
I love the idea of taking something that could be politicized and broadening someone’s belief on it. I think that’s the opportunity that communicators have in this moment.

Lee Carter:
So thank you so much for joining us Sachi.  These are such important conversations that our clients and communicators are wrestling with because silence isn’t an option, and we do need to take a stand.  We do need to communicate about uncomfortable issues.  And so I think this conversation is helpful to more people and so I really appreciate your joining the conversation. Before we let you go, we have three questions that we ask every guest. The first one, what’s your favorite or least favorite word and why?

Sachi Pettit:
Oh, that’s such a good one. Ineffable is my favorite word.

Lee Carter:
Why?

Sachi Pettit:
As a lover of language, I think it is fascinating when things are indescribable by words. And I think ineffable also just sounds lovely.

Lee Carter:
I love that. Sachi, I know we’ve talked about this at throughout the years, but I think one of the things that’s so important for people in their careers and in life is to know what their super powers are. So tell me what you think your super power is?

Sachi Pettit:
At the moment my primary super power I think it’s my untamable curiosity. So really just being super curious. I’ve always been really curious about people, and what makes them tick. It’s partially why I love maslansky and the work we do of getting to talk to people of all different backgrounds. But really just constantly, even the more insights I learn, the more folks I talk to, that thousands of hours of focus groups, still having that curiosity of wanting to drill deeper and not thinking that I know the answer all the time.

Lee Carter:
I think that’s an important one. We should all strive to have more curiosity in our lives. All right. Last question. What’s one thing you wish everyone would remember from this conversation?

Sachi Pettit:
I’d like everyone to remember that when we’re talking about taking a stand, what you say matters way beyond getting the message right or being seen as a leader. It can have real effects and a lasting impact for society at large.

Lee Carter:
That’s a good one. All right. Well, thanks so much for joining us. (Laughter) We’ll see you tomorrow.

Sachi Pettit:
Thanks Lee. Thanks Michael.

Michael Maslansky:
Thanks for Sachi. And I’m Michael Maslansky, and this is Hearsay.

Lee Carter:
And I’m Lee Carter, thank you for joining us.

Michael Maslansky:
For more language insights and to be in the loop on all the other fun stuff we’re doing, follow up on LinkedIn at Maslansky-Partners and join our mailing list at maslansky.com/connect.  If you’ve got questions, feedback or want to tell us how wrong we are, or ideas for us, please reach out to us at [email protected].  That’s all for now.  Join us next time on HearSay because it’s not what you say, it’s what they hear.