The language experts from maslansky + partners take on the smartest, savviest, and sometimes stupidest messages in the market today. CEO Michael Maslansky and President Lee Carter bring their experience with words, communication, and behavioral science to the table — along with a colleague or client — and offer up a “lay of the language.” Their insight helps make sense of business, life, and culture, and proves over and over again that It’s Not What You Say, It’s What They Hear™.

Language changes the way we view the world, politics, business, and products. Sometimes, it’s totally intentional. Sometimes, it’s not. But there is no doubt that the effective use of language can drive behavior. And that’s what language strategy is all about. Finding the language that changes the game. President Lee Carter and CEO Michael Maslansky are joined by Partner Keith Yazmir to talk about how maslansky + partners invented language strategy, they discuss why certain messages resonate (and don’t), and they also share some of their favorite Language Strategy wins: from Starbucks VIA® Instant Coffee to variable annuities.

Listen below or on your preferred streaming platform:

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW

Lee Carter’s book, Persuasion

Michael Maslansky’s book, The Language of Trust

maslansky + partners newsletter

EPISODE 1 TRANSCRIPT:

Michael Maslansky:

They said what? Welcome to HearSay, a podcast from the language strategists at maslansky + partners, where we give our take on the strategy behind the smartest, savviest and stupidest messages in the market today and what you can learn from them. Our philosophy is it’s not what you say. It’s what they hear. And that’s why we call this HearSay.

I’m Michael Maslansky, CEO of maslansky + partners and author of The Language of Trust. I have been focused on language strategy for a long time. So long, in fact, that my name is on the door.

Lee Carter:

(laughs) And I’m Lee Carter, president and partner at maslansky + partners and author of a book called Persuasion: Convincing Others When Facts Don’t Seem to Matter. I’ve been here since sort of the beginning of our definition of language strategy and I’ve always been obsessed with the ways that words change meaning, but also the way words and messaging and language really can change the way people view the world.

Keith Yazmir:

And I’m Keith Yazmir, partner to Michael and Lee, and thrilled to be taking part in our second season of the HearSay podcast and looking forward to what I’m gonna learn from my great colleagues here.

Michael Maslansky:

And teach, I hope.

Keith Yazmir:

(laughs)

Michael Maslansky:

Uh, so welcome to everyone to season two of HearSay. Uh, we’re excited to be back after a prolonged hiatus. But as we were thinking about what we were gonna do for this season, we decided that we would start by taking a little bit of a step back and connect the dots between, uh, what we do today and how we got here, what it is that we thought was important about language strategy that might demand that there be a firm in the market focused on this and also help to define it in ways that might help clients and others put it to effective use for the challenges that they face.

Often, when we introduce ourselves and we say that we are in the business of language strategy, we get one of two reactions. We get, uh, “What in the world is that?” or we get the “Oh, so you translate messages from one language to another.” In fact, uh, we don’t do that. Uh, what we do is something very different that we’re gonna talk about, and we think something extremely important in the world that we operate in today.

Lee Carter:

So before we really dig in to talking about, um, examples or projects that we’ve worked on that have really changed the game from a messaging or a language perspective, I thought we’d just start out by having a chat about, um, how language strategy came to be and why it should be on your list for every piece of communications that you really s-… As communications is evolving, there was a time where everybody was really into viral videos and things like the Ice Bucket Challenge, and I remember us having conversations like, “What does that mean for the future of language?”

And then somewhere around 2015, 2016, uh, the world changed again and we had a, a president who led by 140 characters or less. People had shorter and shorter attention spans. Everything became politicized, and what we learned is that every word and phrase matters now more than it ever did before, right? It was like it went from it having a huge impact on the way you believed to now being an absolute necessity because if you say something the right way, you’re gonna drive the results that wa-… you wanna drive. If you say it the wrong way, you’re opening yourself up to criticism.

So I guess the first question we really need to ask is, what is the thing that we call language strategy? Michael, since you started this whole thing, why don’t you tell us how you define language strategy?

Michael Maslansky:

Sure. If you’re in the world of communication, and more broadly if you’re in the world of business or in your… if, if you’re living day to day, um, you, you find that, uh, w- we’re out there communicating about things all the time. Every time we open our mouth, we’re making a choice about what language to use. And we found, in so many cases, that, uh, that companies were… they weren’t choosing their words wisely.

If you think about this idea of language and strategy, on the one hand, if you use language but you don’t have a strategy for what it is that you’re trying to communicate, you’re gonna get yourself into trouble. But there’s also another part of language and strategy together which is equally important, and that is that if you have strategy without language, you’re gonna get ignored. And, and so the best strategy in the world, if it is not communicated in a way that resonates with the target audience that you’re trying to reach, it’s gonna be ineffective. And so when we think about language strategy, it is that idea of making sure that every time, uh, we as individuals, or our clients, open their mouths, that they understand what words that they’re choosing and why so that they can achieve, uh, the objectives that they set out to achieve.

Lee Carter:

And so when you think about… A lot of people, once you get to that place like, “All right,” it’s like, “Okay, that totally makes sense to me. We’ve got to get the message right. It’s gonna change the way people view our company, our products, our services, whatever it is that we’re talking about.”

How does language strategy, though, really differ from messaging or positioning? And I know Keith, this is a conversation we have all time with our clients, like what is the difference between language strategy and positioning?

Keith Yazmir:

So it’s a great question, and we do get asked that all the time by our, our partners. Um, i-… messaging, and even positioning, are designed to represent, you know, the most important things about a brand, about an, an issue, about a, a company. But time after time, when go out testing different partners’ messaging and positioning, we hear that their audiences are not picking up on what the intention was. And so I think that the difference between messaging and positioning and language strategy is context.

Language strategy is fundamentally based on the fact that we’re communicating to humans who live in a context where what we’re saying is gonna be a fraction of a percent of what they’re hear. It’s the other 99% that is actually defining what they think of us. So if we just go out with our messaging, which is what we want them to pick up on, we’re not actually making a dent. Lee, how would you say language strategy actually differs from messaging or even positioning?

Lee Carter:

So, you know, I always think that these concepts of messaging, positioning, language strategy are actually inextricably linked. And oftentimes, people look at them completely separately. So when you think about messaging, it’s often what proof points or what points do I need to make that are most important. And when you list those out and have people rank them, you’re gonna get an answer, but the way that you talk about each one of those points could have a totally different impact.

So I might talk about therapy being, you know, 99% effective, right? Or I might say that only 1% have any issues with it. That’s the same exact fact. It’s the same exact message, but it’s articulated differently. And that’s what language strategy’s all about. How do you frame and look at something?

Positioning is often trying to say, “What is the position that you want to, um, stand for in the marketplace?” And so if you think about it, in financial services, there’s a lot of insight around people want control over their money, right? But the way you articulate control would have a totally different impact on, on what you view.

So you might have a survey that you’re asking with the positioning. It’s like, “Is it about control or is it about ease?” Well, the way you talk about control or ease is gonna change the way I view it. So we could talk about ease as, you know, a branch on every corner. I could talk about it as, you know, banking whenever and wherever you want it. I could talk about it banking on your terms. Those are all positions underneath the same idea, but language strategy is about making sure that it’s articulated in the way that’s gonna be most resonant.

And so when we view positioning and messaging, we say, “These two things cannot be separated.” You have to look at all the different ways that you can articulate the same idea so we can find the best way to ensure that people hear what you wanna have them hear, do what you want them to do and feel the way you want them to feel. You want it to be measurable and impactful and drive the behavior change that you’re really looking to do. So while positioning and messaging are absolutely important, I think language strategy’s a strategic level on top of that, that really make sure that you’re hitting it out of the park every time.

Keith Yazmir:

So my thinking about language strategy always comes back to the critical importance of context. Uh, Lee mentioned that it’s easy to know what you wanna say. It’s hard to know how to say it so that it actually gets across. But really, language strategy is an approach to communication that works because your audience has biases, misunderstandings, differences of opinion, assumptions, emotions, not despite the fact that your audience has all of those things. So it’s really engineering your communications to fit into your audience’s perspective and worldview so that you can then shift how they’re thinking about something. Otherwise, nobody’s gonna listen to you. They’re just gonna say, “I don’t agree.” You never wanna tell somebody, “You’re wrong,” ’cause they’re gonna stop listening to you immediately.

And that’s, a lot of times, what communications unintentionally tells people. Here’s the thing about this product. It’s the best because. Well, I like this other product, so you’re not speaking to me.

Michael Maslansky:

Yeah, I mean how many people listening have done a positioning exercise and then the result is “That’s our internal positioning, not our external positioning”? So you’ve got positioning that doesn’t actually lead to the message that’s gonna be communicated, or you’ve got a message test that is done, to some extent, in a vacuum. It’s not put in any context with the, the situation that the communicator’s gonna be in or the broader context in which the listener is gonna be operating in, and it, uh, doesn’t seem to do well with the target audience.

Michael Maslansky:

… and it, uh, doesn’t seem to do well with the target audience. But it’s not because the message, the idea you’re trying to communicate is wrong, it’s because of the way that you communicated it that is wrong. And that, if you change the articulation, if you change the word order, if you change, uh, the words themselves, that you can get an extremely different reaction. And my favorite example is always, you know, just thinking about trust, where we do so much work, you know, and, and you ask people what they want in a financial advisor, they’re gonna say they want a financial advisor they can trust, you know? And, and if you turn that into messaging, without thinking about the strategy, and the context, and these other things, you might say, “Look, I’m a financial advisor that you can trust.” Which is a message that will balm. But the idea of conveying that you are trustworthy, uh, through a different articulation is something that’s gonna be critical important. And so, weaving those things together is the difference between doing them in a vacuum and being ineffective. And we think, um, linking them inextricably, Lee, as you said, and, and making really effective.

Lee Carter:

Keith, one of the, the things I, I often think about is, how did we figure this whole thing out? So what was it that first demonstrated to you that there was a need for language strategy? Where did this whole thing start?

Keith Yazmir:

Well, I won’t say this is where it started, but the, the thing that demonstrated to me the need for language strategy has been my, my career pre-maslansky, uh, in communications. I was working for the French government economic development arm, and our job was to run a marketing campaign to tell American CEOs that they should do more inward investment in France. Set up factories, set up call centers, and that there was a real upside there.

My overlords in, in Paris had put together a campaign that quite literally said in the Wall Street Journal, “France, where the smart money goes.” And my job was to somehow help translate that to American businesses. And that gets back to context. But our entire philosophy about it’s not what you say, it’s what people hear, is fundamental to effective communications. And so, I was thinking about that long before I heard of anything called maslansky + partners and anything called language strategy.

It is critically important and it was a huge struggle because, of course, in this case, American CEOs were looking at France as a place where there are 35-hour workweeks, where there’s a strike every other day, and where it would be a nightmare to go and actually open a factory and try to get business done. It was as question of you say they hear, or was a question of your truth, their truth. France actually is a very, very, very lucrative place to do business. It’s got a highly-educated workforce, incredibly high productivity, much higher than here in the States. You had to figure out other ways to go in and say, “Yes, I know there’s 35-hour workweek. Yes, I know there are strikes fairly often. But did you know there’s incredibly high productivity? Did you know the amount of money that’s being spent there et cetera?” So it was something that really brought to the fore the disconnect between what people are intending to say and why people are actually here.

Michael Maslansky:

Lee, what about you? When did you first realize that, uh, that this was a thing?

Lee Carter:

I worked in financial services marketing for a while in my career and I worked on variable annuities, which is incredibly complicated. Everybody was talking about guaranteed income for life. No one really understood what they were. And I started to realize as I was building out the, the collateral and the support for the, you know, financial advisors on all of this, that if we could just change the language, if we could just simplify things, that you could really change the game on what people thought. Because people used to hear variable annuities, they thought high-cost, they thought a lot of other things. A lot of people aren’t sitting there investing right now thinking about guaranteed income for life, and so there’s so much opportunity there.

And so I was working all of that. And then, I went to a conference where, um, one of the founders of this firm was speaking about the election in 2004 when George W. Bush won. I would always say, “You could have a great policy and no message and you’re not gonna win.” And so then I heard, um, uh, one of our founders speaking at this conference, and it was a… his job to try and understand the impact of words on the way people vote, on the way people make decisions in stores, and all across the board. And I thought, “That is the coolest thing I’ve ever heard of in my life. I wanna do that for a career.” Because it was something that I just so firmly believed.

And so, I spent a year stalking Michael and his former partner until they finally, um, would take a meeting with me. And then, we’ve gotten to do this, um, every day since. I think I always knew the power that words had, but I didn’t fully appreciate, um, the behavioral science behind it until I got here. Till I really started to see the difference in small things. And I think one of the first projects, uh, that I worked on here, probably maybe third… You… Michael, we worked on it together. We were talking about the difference between financial solutions and financial strategies, which doesn’t sound like that big of deal, right? But over and over again we heard from people saying, “I don’t want a solution. Don’t tell me that I’ve got a problem. And by the way, you know, if you’re my financial advisor and you’re telling me about, um, you know, solutions, that means it’s gonna be once and done, you’re gone. And I want a long-term relationship. I want you to guide me for the long-term, and a strategy’s gonna do that.” I thought, “Wow, that one phrase changed the way they view their relationship with their financial advisor.” And there’s so many more layers, um, and so many more examples that I can give beyond that, but it just was amazing to me that just a change in a word or a phrase.

And then, as we got a little bit further down the road, I know, Michael, one of my favorite projects that we ever worked on was, was the instant coffee example. And I think you probably tell that better than anybody else. But that, to me, shows how just changing words can totally change the way you view something.

Michael Maslansky:

Yeah. So it’s… it is one of our favorite examples, and it goes back to, uh, Starbucks wanting to launch an instant coffee into the marketplace, at a… at a point where Starbucks was doing well as an organization, had a strong brand, a perception, uh, of, of having great coffee. And they wanted to launch an instant coffee. And every time we went into research, we found that, you know, instant coffee just had these incredibly negative perceptions. It was seen as the, the sachets of, uh, of granules that then floated on top of the coffee and you couldn’t quite get them to mix in. And our challenge was how do you make people think that this coffee is as good as a normal cup of Starbucks? And as we went through, we realized that if, if, if that was the strategy, then actually the language could follow, follow pretty closely behind. And instead of talking about this as instant coffee from Starbucks, we talked about it as Starbucks coffee in an instant. And just be reordering the language, uh, we got a very different, uh, reaction from people who could focus on their association, their positive association with the brand, as opposed to their negative association with the category.

Uh, and we see that all the time where it’s a simple kind of strategic shift based on an insight about how people think about a product or a category that makes, uh, the work that we do so interesting and powerful, I think, in, in so many situations.

Lee Carter:

Another example, Michael, that you’ve… I mean, you’ve done so much work in financial services, right? Over time. And I think, you know, your book, The Language of Trust, was built on a lot of work that you did around, around work in financial services. But I talked about [inaudible] variable annuities where nobody understood, and what I had done when I… before I came here and understood the rigor and discipline of language strategy was totally rudimentary. But, you made a huge shift for the whole industry that I think has changed the way people talk about variable annuities forever. How did that happen? Like, how did you get from everybody talking about guaranteed income for life to where you needed to go?

Michael Maslansky:

A common theme in so much of our work is what’s going on in the world, what’s the broader context? How do people think? What is the audience, you know, kind of perception? What are their cognitive biases? What are their experiential biases? And then, what is it that we’re trying to communicate? And if you, uh… if you kind of put those things together, you find that as context changes, as the audience changes, uh, the message needs to adapt in… a… i- in order to resonate and, and help you achieve your goal. And in this case, we were talking about, uh, a, a product category that, uh, had a lot of baggage associated with it. It was being attacked on financial news on a regular basis. It was incredibly complex. In fact, so complex that most financial advisors couldn’t explain to a, a client what the product was. Uh, and the focus of so much of the messaging had been on this idea of guaranteed income for life.

And that actually worked reasonably well until Hurricane Katrina hit. And there were all these stories on the news about the fact that certain insurance companies were not paying claims. Uh, and that all of a sudden this idea of a guarantee from an insurance company, or really any guarantee in life, kind of like the basic idea that you can count on an insurance company or the government for that matter to help you recover from a natural disaster kind of went out the window. And, and when we tested this idea of guarantees, uh, people laughed. I mean, they said, “There, there are just no guarantees in life. You’re asking me to buy a product based on guarantees, but I don’t think that they exist.” And so, um, you know, that was part of it.

And, and what we found was that actually not only was that the problem, but that, uh, even the idea of guaranteed income was very hard for people to understand. What people want when they invest or when they prepare for retirement is they want growth in their assets, and they want to do it, uh, without taking so much risk that, uh, it’s gonna get them in trouble. And so, this idea of protected growth was born and really helped shift the focus of the industry, uh, into this language that we’re saying, “Look, what is powerful about these products is that they allow you to invest for growth, um, while protecting you from some of the market risk that is associated-

Michael Maslansky:

… um, while protecting you from some of the market risk that is associated with just investing in equities, for example. Uh, and so really shifted the lexicon.

Lee Carter:

And I’ve gotta say, that shift that you made was probably 15 years ago now.

Michael Maslansky:

Hm.

Lee Carter:

You know, one of the steps in our process when we’re trying to understand this is, we interview a lot of experts on whatever it is that we’re talking about. So, I was on an interview with an expert in, um, investing. And, um, somehow we got on the topic of variable annuities, ’cause I feel like my whole life is somehow gonna be, like, six degrees of variable annuities. But somehow we got on the topic. And I couldn’t believe it. And this is an equities guy, this is not a variable annuity guy. You know, and- and- and he said to me, now there’s a really important space for variable annuities. Because especially in moments like this, you wanna have access to growth, but you like the protection that exists.

Michael Maslansky:

Hm, hm, hm, hm.

Lee Carter:

And I thought, oh my god, 15 years later, this guy is still talking about it in a way that you and a team that your client, um, did- did that years ago. And it’s- it’s amazing, because when you tap into that insight on what it is that people are looking for, not what you wanna say, not what it is that is most important to you, ’cause often what we wanna talk about is what’s most important to us, not what’s important to our target audience, they totally changed the game.

Michael Maslansky:

Mm-hmm.

Lee Carter:

And Keith, if I think back now, one of the first times I was totally in awe, and this was another old one, this is an oldie (laughs) but goodie, where you were working for a technology company who had had a lotta bugs, right? And they wanted to come back and relaunch and talk about how amazing and cool their new software’s gonna be. That’s what they wanted to say. And you found some really interesting stuff, can you talk about that a little bit?

Keith Yazmir:

It’s human nature, as you said, Lee, to talk about kinda what matters to you. (laughs)

Lee Carter:

(laughs) Mm-hmm.

Keith Yazmir:

‘Cause that’s what we figure matters to everybody. Um, and you see this a lot in- in tech and- and in automotive as well, where what matters to the company is what the engineers have developed, which is shiny, bright and new. And the case you’re talking about it was a new, significant, uh, package of- of software. And the engineers rightly were incredibly excited about the cool little gadgets and the little bells and whistles that they had revolutionized, they had brought to market, these are things that did not exist before. Uh, whereas their user base, not surprisingly from the outside, was much more interested in the fundamental operations of the software. And so, when we went out to talk about all of these great new innovations, they fell flat.

And when we shifted the conversation to what the users actually were worried about and were focused on, which was the basics of having a better, smoother experience with the software, there was incredible excitement, and they said, “Yes, that’s what we want.” And what was interesting beyond that, which I know we all see often is part two of this adventure was convincing our partners, our clients-

Lee Carter:

(laughs)

Keith Yazmir:

… that this was in fact the most effective way to go. Once we did, they had the- the- the fastest software, new- new released launch. Um, everyone was happy. But that’s in hindsight. During it, it’s hard. Because, you know, not only are their customers humans and acting like humans do which is based on their own biases and- and perspective, but of course, what we all are as well. And so, it’s an interesting ride to- to partner with folks, to help fe- people see kind of the truth from their audience’s perspective.

Michael Maslansky:

So, I wanna fast forward though to today and what we’re seeing in so many situations, uh, now, in terms of the sensitivity to language in the world that we’re living in today, that literally, everywhere that you look, uh, people are paying more attention to language than they ever had before, and, uh, Lee, I always give you hard time about talking about things never having been this way before but-

Lee Carter:

(laughs)

Michael Maslansky:

… but this one, this one is true.

Lee Carter:

(laughs)

Michael Maslansky:

Um, that, uh, you know, I was just at a conference of communicators, and it’s literally, uh, connected to every issue. It is, uh, CEOs or companies that are worried about speaking out on anything, because they’re worried that they will say the right thing in the wrong way. Tat they will get in trouble for speaking, that they will get in trouble for not speaking. And, uh, whether it’s a pharmaceutical company where these amazing pharmaceutical companies tat- that create these incredible breakthrough medications, but often are- are very similar in- in pursuing these kinda groundbreaking missions of- of changing people’s lives, um, the difference in how they’re perceived often comes down tot eh way that they communicate their mission or purpose or narrative or core values.

Um, and so, all of these things mean that it is more important than ever to be very strategic about the language that you use before communicating, uh, and to be very focused on what language is gonna most effectively communicate whatever strategy is that you’re going into market with. And so, for communicators out there, for marketers out there, I think the bar is higher than ever to find that language. The pitfalls are greater than ever, uh, in terms of getting it wrong.

And I think, y- you know, we’ve often lamented over the course of the- the last 15 years that communication doesn’t, uh, uh, and- and language strategy doesn’t necessarily get the seat at the table that it deserves. And I think we’re at a point now where more and more organizations are recognizing, uh, just how much it can earn you or cost you if you do it, are gonna do language strategy right.

Lee Carter:

You know, I think that’s so important that you think about how times have changed so much related to this. Because I say a lot, words have become weapons. They can be used to win and they can be used against you. And when I talk to a lot of our clients who are chief communications officers about their jobs, ’cause I love to ask people, like, what is your job, really? Like, what do you do every day? Um, a lot of them, these are C level executives, are saying they’re spending 75% of their time reacting to misinformation or information or re- reacting to things on social media.

Um, and, you know, we had a client the other day who, he spoke in front of a huge audience for an hour. And 99.9% of what he said was great. There were two phrases that he mentioned-

Michael Maslansky:

Mm-hmm.

Lee Carter:

… during that speech, that became memes, that became, you know, they got retweeted, they got, the articles were focused on just those two statements, which were nothing in the context of the broader speech. Really, it- it shouldn’t have had the impacted that it does, but that’s the world we’re living in. So, that you are one phrase away from losing your debate if you’re not careful about every word that you use.

Michael Maslansky:

Yeah, I think it’s so true. I mean, I think, you know, Keith, are there a- any examples, any other, uh, situations that come to mind where this is playing out in the work that, uh, that you’re focused on right now.

Keith Yazmir:

Well, what it brings to mind is an additional layer, which is consistency and- and rigor in- in what you’re saying. I mean, Lee, your example is a great and sadly fairly common one, I think, where 99.9% of communications is completely up-ended by that 0.1%, if my math is correct here. But it is a challenge that has existed for long time in the business world and in the world of organizations and certainly in politics as well. But being able to consistently articulate the right message, using the right words, and sticking it on that message to the extent that it’s boring the heck out of you and your team (laughs) to be saying that same thing, I think has never been more valuable, because it makes you show up in the marketplace in the most powerful and effective way, but also ideally, it keeps you out of trouble, once you two have decided what are the ways that you can communicate in that are gonna be most resonant.

Lee Carter:

So, when we’re talking about language strategy, sometimes it’s not just about politicization or reputation rebuilding or even the big corporate thing, sometimes it’s a much smaller thing. So, you’re talking about, you’re introducing a- a therapy to market, it’s third to market, right? So, language theory goes big to small. So, how do you talk about this thing in a different way? One of our colleagues, um, did, I won’t take any credit for this work, but, um, there’s a lotta fatigue that comes along with, um, with certain, uh, certain conditions, um, inflammatory conditions. And physicians weren’t taking patients seriously about it. It’s like, oh, take more Tylenol, we don’t really understand it.

And patients just thought it was something they had to live with, because it was part of their condition. But when we change the way wet talked about the condition and saying, “You have something called inflammatory fatigue,” And it’s a very common thing for people who have your condition,” suddenly patients felt relief that they had a thing that they could identify. And physicians felt like they had to treat it, because they didn’t just have to disregard it. And it changed the whole category, right? So, when you think about language strategy, it can be big, it can be small, it can be in differentiation, but it can also really uncover, you know, that sort of, like, I- I’m over it. You’re the third to market, why should I even listen to you? You get it right, you’re gonna have a huge impact.

Michael Maslansky:

Yeah, no, I mean, I- I’ll give you a- another example that, I just heard last week in research that echoes something that I- I heard more than a decade ago and many times in between is that, if I asked you to tell me, what’s the one word that you could use that would have the great-

Keith Yazmir:

What’s the one word that you could use that would have the greatest impact on increasing consideration of an investment? What would you say?

Michael Maslansky:

Growth.

Keith Yazmir:

No. It’s actually portion.

Lee Carter:

Ah.

Keith Yazmir:

If I, if I ask you if you want to invest your money in, let’s say it’s a growth fund, the interpretation of that question that we hear over and over again is that people assume that they’re being asked to shift their entire strategy and put all their money into the product. But if you say, “Would you be interested in putting a portion of your portfolio into this product,” then all of a sudden, anybody who liked the product but was worried about over-investing in any one thing, they switch. And they will consider it.

And, and what it gets at is this idea that there, there are certain beliefs, like certain underlying beliefs that we have as humans. And it, and it’s not always across cultures, but, but this one I think is probably largely pretty global, which is that don’t put all your eggs in one basket. And if we understand that as investors, people don’t want to put all their eggs in one basket, then we need to make sure that when we talk about investing, banking… uh, you know, every bank has had trouble with cross-selling and trying to get people to just take that one more account, because nobody wants to put all their eggs in one basket. And so if you understand that, like, fundamental human truth, and you say, “Okay, if that’s true, and I probably can’t change that, how do I find the right message, the right language so that I meet people where they are and still get what I want?”

Lee Carter:

So every time you try to communicate, there’s an intention and an impact that you’re looking to have. Right? Your intention can be right, but if your words are wrong, your impact is going to be wrong. You’re not going to have the impact. You’re going to be ignored, or even worse, you’re going to be misconstrued. If your words and your language are right, you’re going to have the exact impact you want and you’re going to get ex- you know, you’re going to drive the behavior change, or the business results, or the impact that you want to have. So our job with language strategy is to make sure that your intent and your impact are aligned, and that you’re going to achieve the results that you’re looking to achieve by the effective use of messaging and language.

Keith Yazmir:

So, Lee, let’s start with you. If you could take credit for any marketing campaign ever, what would it be?

Lee Carter:

Oh my land. Well, you know, um, one of the reasons I got really interested in this, in this business years ago was my uncle was in advertising. Um, and I used to love following his, his advertisements because I thought he had like the coolest life. You know, he was my bachelor uncle who lived in Manhattan and rode the subway. And this was during like Mad Men era. Right? And he, um, started an agency in, in Asia and he lived in Hong Kong, and it was always amazing. But one of the ads that he worked on was an American Express ad, and I always loved it. And it was trying to show how if you have an American Express card, it comes with some kind of status. Right? But how do you say that. Right? You can’t just say like, “Oh, you’ve got this status.” Well, the campaign was, “Do you know me? Lucky you.” And it would, and it, and it showed people in a, in a, in a totally different light. Sometimes there was a celebrity on it and their name would go across the, the bottom of the card. Sometimes it was just another person, average person doing something really extraordinary. But somehow, the idea then of putting that card down came with status, without you saying it’s status.

And I thought that was always so cool and so clever. Um, and I love those kinds of things where you don’t say something. You imply it, right, those kinds of campaigns. Like we don’t have to say you’re the safest, but I walk always feeling like it’s safest. You can say it’s the biggest luxury car, but I feel like it is. That implicit, those implicit campaigns, that’s what I, I, I love and would love to take more credit for, some of those.

Keith Yazmir:

Something popped up, uh, while I was reading the newspaper this week that stood out to me. Um, and it was a message from the casino lobby in New York State where we all live, about the need for more casinos downstate here in New York City. Um, something that I, personally, am not super excited about. I think we have plenty to keep us all busy and (laughs), kind of to, to take our time and money here. But it was a, a, a very quick, you know banner ad on, online. And the banner ad says, “What New York really needs is more casinos.” And then after it, it says, “Huh?

I thought of this just because I, I like the segue from Lee, you talking about empathy and Michael, you talking about kind of how to find that common ground to agree on. And this ad reaches out and says something that immediately I’m gonna have no interest in before it brings my skepticism forward. Says New York News, “More casinos, huh?” I’m like, “Oh, I wouldn’t have read it if it didn’t have that huh.” Now I’m like, “Oh, they are on my side. They agree with that, with the skepticism.” Then if you click, it goes on to talk about that they will help fund education. And that that’s really what this is about. Right? Whether you think that’s the, the appropriate kind of message that’s gonna really move the needle, I just found it was interesting in that it starts with empathy. It starts by not trying to tell me something that says I’m wrong. But it starts by empathizing with how I actually feel. And then makes a shift to trying to find that common ground and create that agreement, Michael, that you were talking about.

Michael Maslansky:

I’m gonna pick up on, Keith, your example with an oldie with one that I, kind of come back to a lot, uh, as an example. And that is an old BASF ad that was, “We don’t make a lot of things you use. We make a lot of things you use better.” And this idea of this brand that nobody ever purchased anything from, except I remember old BASF cassette tapes. But other than that, I don’t think anybody ever used it as an end product. And, and getting you to kind of think about, “Okay, they’ve just exposed a certain amount of vulnerability about, about themselves. ‘We don’t, we don’t make a lot of the things you use.'” So now I’m paying attention. Why would you advertise that? And then, uh, “We make a lot of them better.” And, and all of a sudden of just, like, putting me in the mind of like, “Okay, wow.” I’ve, I-, I- if, if they had said that we’re the best raw materials manufacturer ever, we’d be like, “Great.” But just this, like, disruptive flip, uh, on its head, not unlike the huh from the gaming ad, I think is, uh, is a really powerful one.

Keith Yazmir:

So that’s a wrap. You’ve heard all about the birth of language strategy. How it involves everything from words, of course, to empathy, to finding the right emotions to communicate, to truly connecting and communicating what you’re intending to have said.

Michael Maslansky:

And we had a little bit of fun doing it.

Keith Yazmir:

(laughs).

Michael Maslansky:

It was great, Keith and Lee, getting to chat about this. Uh, it was fun to hear how we talked through this after doing it together for so many years. And we’re super excited to have our second season kicking off with this episode. And looking forward to bringing on guests and talk about specific and real world challenges and break them down, uh, with a group of insiders as well. Uh, and if you want more language insights or to be in the loop on what we’re doing here, please follow us on LinkedIn at maslansky-partners or, uh, come to maslansky.com/connect and join our mailing list. Thank you, everybody, for listening and please send over comments, if you’ve got any. You can go to [email protected] and talk about how much you liked what Lee said or what Keith said and how I was, uh, mediocre. But, um, I’m the host, so I’m gonna be here anyway.

Keith Yazmir:

Fantastic as always. And don’t forget, it’s not what you say. It’s what they hear.