The Language of the Candidates
maslansky + partners
The language experts from maslansky + partners take on the smartest, savviest, and sometimes stupidest messages in the market today. CEO Michael Maslansky and President Lee Carter bring their experience with words, communication, and behavioral science to the table—along with a colleague or client—and offer up a “lay of the language.” Their insight helps make sense of business, life, and culture, and proves over and over again that It’s Not What You Say, It’s What They Hear™.
In this new episode of HearSay, Lee Carter and Ben Feller look at what the two presidential candidates are saying, what’s important about it – and what people should be listening for in the political months ahead.
Now that President Biden and Former President Trump are officially set for a rematch, Lee and Ben will analyze their contrasting approaches to how they frame issues like the economy, threats to our democracy, and the issue looming above both of theme room—their age. Lee and Ben offer insights into the current political landscape and speculate on the future trajectory of the election, based on many years of covering and considering how language shapes voter perception and behavior.
Listen below or on your preferred streaming platform:
LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW
Lee Carter’s book, Persuasion
Ben Feller’s book, Big Problems, Little Problems
maslansky + partners newsletter
TRANSCRIPT BELOW
Lee Carter:
They said what? Welcome to HearSay, a podcast from the language strategist at Maslansky and Partners, where we give our take on the strategy behind the smartest, savviest, and stupidest messages in the market today and what you can learn from them. Our philosophy is it’s not what you say, it’s what they hear, and that’s why we call this HearSay. I’m Lee Carter, president and partner of Maslansky and Partners and author of a book called Persuasion.
Ben Feller:
I am Ben Feller, Lee’s fellow partner and his landscape partners and former chief White House correspondent for the Associated Press where I covered a lifetime full of political language and yet I am back for more. Hi, Lee.
Lee Carter:
Hi, welcome. I am so excited about this. We are on the morning after we now have our official nominees for the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. We’ve got Joe Biden versus Donald Trump for real now. You ready for it?
Ben Feller:
Do we have a choice? I am ready for it. I’m ready for the rematch. Are you ready for it?
Lee Carter:
The election that nobody says they want and what do they say? 70% of Americans say this is not what they want, but here we are. So let’s go with it. So we’re just post Super Tuesday, just post State of the Union, just post some of the other states that came in. And here we are. And I think both of us have had some personal stories as we’ve been going through this. Tell me about watching the State of the Union with your son.
Ben Feller:
So it was almost an accidental feeling. My son came in while I was watching it and he was like, hey, what do you got there, the State of the Union? Curiosity, and he said, oh, I’m gonna be talking about this in my humanities class tomorrow. So he watched and really just could not understand the political theater. Why do they keep standing up and sitting down? Why is one side clapping and the other not? He just struck them for the first time, how ridiculous the politics of the scene are. I’m like, yeah, I tried to explain to him that’s part of American theater, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. But he didn’t really get into the policy league until President Biden talked about shrink-flation and how there aren’t as many chips in the snack bag as there used to be. Now that got Sam excited. He said, yeah, we ought to do something about that. So maybe if you could just reach one listener.
Lee Carter:
So he’s the one. He’s the one that resonated with, because I’ve been wondering, is that really what the problem is with inflation? Is it smackflation or is it something much broader? I think it’s fascinating how kids pick up on so much. Like what you’re talking about there is sort of the language of the State of the Union that’s unspoken. There’s so much that goes on in all of that. My daughter is four and I could not get her to go to sleep on time that night, I’m not winning mom of the year award anytime on bedtimes. I’ll just put it that way. But she, I said, well, if you’re going to be up, mommy has to watch State of the Union address. So you’re going to have to sit here and watch it with me. So she said, OK. And then she watches it for a couple of minutes. She was watching it pretty intently. And she looks at me and goes, mommy, who’s winning? And it just struck me. Like, how could you watch that and think, without knowing any context, that this was like a war that one could win and one could lose? And I thought it was just a fascinating take that she had. So here we are, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, the election nobody asked for. How do we make people care? I mean, one of the things that we’re seeing, right, is it’s like the election of people on both sides that have extreme views are engaged, but a lot of people are saying, this is not what I want.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, you know, you and I are into this both because we’re political followers of the Nth degree, but also because our daily work is helping people find the language that makes them care. So the first thing that both of these contenders have to do is find, continue to find the messages that people actually want to listen about. They don’t want these candidates. And there’s definitely a political fatigue in the country. People don’t feel things are going very well. So both of them are looking for those few issues that are gonna really make people care. And I think for President Biden, we heard it in the State of the Union. He framed it around freedoms, freedom to live in a country that feels like its institutions are gonna matter and democracy is gonna be here and we’re all gonna wake up tomorrow and be safe. And then freedom of personal choice, which is obviously a key issue for Democrats, particularly among women. So that’s Biden’s framing. And I think former President Trump has a whole legion of people who automatically care because it’s about him and the following they have for him and the belief they have in him. His challenge is going to be the people who are possibly persuadable this time, and they didn’t go for him last time. It was a close election in a few states and he lost. And so I’m not sure how he’s going to make those sort of, you know, persuadable folks care. It’s going to be fun to watch that.
Lee Carter:
Mm-hmm. I wanna go back to your freedom comment, because I found this fascinating. In 2020, Joe Biden really leaned hard into the threat to democracy. That was very much centerpiece of his messaging. And then in 2022, in the midterms, that was very much part of the Democrats’ messaging about, and they were able to ward off the red wave, and so it became just sort of a red trickle, a lot of those a lot of those candidates on the right failed, I think because democracy turned out to be much more important to folks than what a lot of people thought was gonna be the issue that mattered the most, which was the economy. But I’m finding, you know, as this race is shaping up to be a little bit different, that sort of well-treaded threat to democracy, is that something that really works? And one of the things that I’ve been noticing in polling is as many Republicans are concerned about a threat to democracy as Democrats. It’s 47% of Republicans think that if Democrats take over, there’s a threat to democracy and 52% on the reverse. And so it’s very similar. So when you use that message, is it gonna resonate? But Joe Biden did something really interesting. He switched it a little bit. It’s not just about a threat to democracy. It’s all about protecting our freedoms, which I think is really smart because it’s much more optimistic. It’s much more hopeful. It’s much more something that I want. The other was just so dark and ominous. I used to be like, threat to democracy, come on. Like, you think that we can’t vote, we can’t whatever. But the freedom thing, that really got me. I thought that was a really interesting language flip.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, you were all over that. It was a key part of the speech. In fact, it was unusual for President Biden to lead with that. Usually there’s a bit of a windup before you get into foreign affairs. But he said, you know, this is a time where our democracy and freedoms are a threat abroad and at home. And I think for some people, they don’t necessarily feel that the way that he does. They don’t feel this assault on America the way that we did, you know, at 9-11 in people’s lifetime or during COVID when our freedoms. We’re certainly at risk. We felt that every day. But he sees it in this broader threat of President Trump in his view. And I agree with you, shifting from the idea of democracy, which is really important, but broad and kind of institutional, to freedom, which is deeply personal, was a good shift. And I also think, Lee, he had a line in his State of the Union speech that landed well, which was, you can’t love your country only when you win. And that’s how you tie freedom and democracy together is that he’s trying to remind people from a time, not that long ago, but it feels like it, when President Trump did win the election, then he lost the next time and didn’t accept the results. And we all know what came of that, including the siege on the Capitol. And so he’s trying to remind people that you can’t just decide to love the country only when you win. Freedom means freedom to choose, freedom to vote, but it also means you have to honor the freedoms of the people who voted and leave office and I think we’re going to continue to hear that from him. What did you think that line worked and do you think that theme is going to work for him?
Lee Carter:
I think it depends how he continues to progress with it. Because I’ve seen him since go back to some of the more dark threat to democracy. but I really do think the idea of freedoms is going to be much more resonant. And I think that Republicans have severely underestimated the reproductive freedom and family freedom. in particular since the ruling about IVF in Alabama happened, I think it’s become even more about freedom to have a family the way that you choose, which is much different than just making this about abortion. So I think that’s gonna be a real problem for Republicans. So I think it’s smart for them to lean into freedom. I’m interested to see if this is something that they’re gonna do with discipline or if they’re gonna go back to sort of the dark, you know, Trump is fascist, dictator, Nazi, threat to democracy.
Ben Feller:
And I think from a language perspective, you and I have had this discussion before, and I think it’s worthy of having through October and November is going back to not just the idea of a threat, but what actually happened a few years ago, helpful to President Biden or hurtful. Is it going back to a dark time and feeling like, you know, everything is in the past, or is it reminding people who don’t pay attention to politics the way you and I do? Remember what happened last time. Do you really want that to be the case again? I continue to think that it is worth, from a political perspective, reminding people as long as you attach it to a vision of freedom ahead. But I know that there’s a counter argument to that as well in terms of looking back. I think we’re gonna continue to see President Biden do that in his commercials and in his speeches. He will continue to remind people about January 6th and what it means, and we’ll see if it works.
Lee Carter:
Yeah, I think we’re on opposite sides of how much focus I think needs to be paid to January 6th, because I often think when there’s someone who’s always reacting to the other that they’re losing. And so I would urge Joe Biden not to just react to Donald Trump, but rather to act and move things forward. But it’s gonna be interesting for us to watch. So I know this is something that we have had a lot of healthy debates on. One of the things that I also thought was interesting about this State of the Union Address is that it was much less a typical State of the Union address and much more of a campaign speech. And I say that because Joe Biden didn’t just address the nation, he addressed his opponent throughout the entirety of his speech. It was, I think he mentioned or referred to Donald Trump, not by name, we’ll talk about that in just a second, but more than 10 or 14 times. It was very much a speech drawn contrast between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, who he never referred to by name. And I think what he did there in not naming Donald Trump, but rather referring to him as his predecessor was so significant and from a language perspective, so smart. What did you make of it?
Ben Feller:
Yeah, I thought at first it was a little bit awkward because as a listener, again, as a lay person tuning into the speech or watching clips, you think predecessor, what are we talking about? Oh, you mean Trump. Why don’t you just say his name? But then you go to the political language decision in that, which is, I am not going to honor you by naming you. You don’t, you’re not at my level anymore, but I do need to draw a contrast with you because this is not just a state of union speech. It is an election speech in an election year. And so every chance I have, I do need to draw a contrast. So the middle ground was to talk about Trump as predecessor, the guy that was here before, and put him in the context of the past. While, I lead you forward. And I think that it was an interesting word choice. And after he said it four or five times, the listeners began to pick up what he was doing. You don’t get to come into my speech, I won, but you do need to be in my speech to frame the choice. What did you think of it?
Lee Carter:
Hmm. I thought it was so smart. I, you know, so many people give advice on how to attack Trump or take Trump down and they all sort of say they’ve gotta, you know, go for the jugular, hit him where it hurts, out-Trump Trump, be so hard-hitting. I think one of the most powerful ways to take Trump down is sort of just do a pinprick and like take the air out of him, right? And I think by not giving him a name, by calling him my predecessor. He did just that, he took the air out of him. It’s like he made him somewhat irrelevant. He made him a past president, somebody who’s not relevant today. I think was somewhat dismissive of the role that he plays in today. And I think in many ways made Joe Biden less reactive to Donald Trump and he often is, because I think so much of his messaging has been in reaction to Donald Trump. And that’s why when you see in the polling, you’ve got only 30% of people who vote for Joe Biden are voting for Joe Biden. Most people are voting against Donald Trump, and I think that’s what he’s led people to do by his through his messaging. And I think this is gonna be interesting. Is he going to take the wind out of Donald Trump’s sails by not giving him the airspace? I think it was smart.
Ben Feller:
It also reminded me, Lee, of something that happened when I covered the White House. And President Obama had won, had become President Obama, had made consequential life decisions and decisions that affected not just America, but the globe. And yet he came into the briefing room one day and talked about and unveiled his long-form birth certificate to prove he was American, which was unbelievable that he had to do that, but the pressure that the White House felt politically to do so started with Donald Trump, who was raising questions about it. And in that moment, President Obama came out and referred to Donald Trump as a carnival worker, would not give him the credence to name him, but also was reacting to him by having to show, hey, I’m actually an American, even though I’m already in office. The whole thing was so surreal. But there’s this pattern in politics, because Biden was vice president then, and it continues to happen. How do you attack and pivot against your opponent and win? You know, when Maddie, your daughter, asks you, who’s winning, this is about winning, but also not be reactive. And so those language choices of naming somebody without naming them are really interesting.
Lee Carter:
It’s in stark contrast to what Donald Trump does when he’s naming his opponents, which is not just to call them any name or by name, he makes up his own name. And we’ve noticed that recently, Donald Trump has been referring to Joe Biden, not as Sleepy Joe as he used to, that was his former nickname. Now he’s calling him Crooked Biden. I think it’s really interesting because Donald Trump has a knack for nicknames. And at first when I heard this crooked Biden, I thought, oh, good Lord, he’s just renaming crooked Hillary to crooked Biden. And it’s like, it’s a little bit lazy. And then I started thinking about it a little bit more. And I thought, is this sly like a fox? Now, I don’t love the name calling. In fact, I hate the name calling. It drives me absolutely berserk. But there’s something about it. He gets underneath the undercurrent of what people think when you think about low energy Jeb, little Marco, the names that he’s had, so on and so forth. This one plays into the whole narrative that Donald Trump is trying to run on, which is there’s a two tier system of justice and I’m being treated unfairly. And look at this crooked, crooked Joe’s getting away with everything while I’m going to court and he’s gonna campaign from the courtroom steps. And I thought, oh wow, he’s now naming Joe Biden something that actually puts him the centerpiece of Donald Trump’s narrative. It’s not really just even naming Joe Biden. It’s actually naming him on his own terms, putting him in the place that he wants to, I don’t know. It’s a strategy.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, you use the phrase has a knack for and former president Trump absolutely has a knack for that to finding the nickname that speaks to something bigger. You know, not just needles and denigrates his opponents, but it speaks to something that he thinks voters go, aha, yeah, he is like that. And I think of those caricatures that you see, you know, street artists do, and they find one thing that people are kind of known for and exaggerated for laughs, but to kind of show like that’s the personality. That’s the feature that matters. And I think Trump tries to find one that voters and the media will seize upon and they adopt that framing and he wins by that. So I don’t know that crooked Biden or crooked Joe is gonna last from this perspective of somebody who’s been indicted on multiple felonies for what he’s done in terms of trying to overturn an election, what he’s accused of doing. But I do agree with you. It’s an interesting strategy to say, you know what, actually he’s crooked and he’s in power and look at his poll numbers, he’s not popular. Give me another chance and to see where it goes. And if it doesn’t work, you know what he does Lee? He just moves on to another one. You don’t have to be consistent. Like I’m gonna try things out. I’m gonna get laughs. I’m gonna see what works. And then I’m going to pound the hell out of it and stay with it. And we have seen not only candidates who he’s got up against fall by the wayside, but other people just stay silent because they don’t want to nickname. They don’t want to be in the crosshairs. That and that’s another part of how Trump wins is not just who he fights against, but who he keeps in his corner for fear of retribution.
Lee Carter:
Fascinating and it’s fascinating how many people who he’s had nicknames for end up in his corner later on which I mean think about the list of the VP candidates that are being floated out there he said has quite a few of those that have nicknames
Ben Feller:
Yeah, and by the way, some of the people who he has the most insulting nicknames for are people who worked for him. And not that long ago, were in his cabinet who got praise. And so if you said, well, how could they be this and then that all in the same election cycle? Well, because they were with me and now they’re against me. So now they get the nickname. I mean, and who’s going to care if I’m consistent or inconsistent? That’s not that’s not how Trump sees politics. It’s about winning that day and moving on. I think Biden is trying to sort of paint this broader frame. I’ve lived a long life. Here’s where I’ve been. Democracy matters. And voters get to choose which one they resonate with.
Lee Carter:
So actually, you just raised an issue that I think we’ve been talking a lot about, which is the issue of age and mental acuity and mental fitness. I suddenly occurred to me how like, I don’t think I ever used the term mental acuity before this year and now it seems to be like out of coming out of my mouth almost every time I’m on air. It’s like mental acuity, it’s like that’s now the measure, which is interesting because I think that’s the measure that Republicans have put in place. It’s not about age, it’s about mental acuity. And when you look at polling, there’s polling that’ll say it’s not necessarily that they believe that Joe Biden is too old, but 60 something percent of Americans say they don’t think he has the mental acuity or the mental endurance and stamina to run the country. And I think that’s just another fascinating language shift too, instead of talking about how old you are to how sharp you are.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, and how good your memory is, which has become an issue for President Biden in terms of what the special prosecutor recently found. And I think that for most people, mental acuity, sharpness, is really a proxy for are they too old to do the job. And what I thought was interesting about the State of the Union speech and the debate that’s followed is that it’s being framed as Democrats and they didn’t breathe the cyber relief about Biden’s policies or the reaction to it or how voters responded, but rather an 81 year old president got up there and was able to get through the speech, keep his place on the teleprompter and, you know, and have some fire to him. Like, okay, he showed he can do it because part of what people are looking for, Lee, as we talk about language so much, is body language. And can you get through that kind of pressure packed moment and feel like you’re on top of your game. And so much that we talk about policy, that’s what voters are looking for. And that’s what opponents are looking for is, is this person on top of their game? Are they finishing their sentences? Are they landing their marks? Because that is really, I think, at the heart of this election for a lot of people. If we don’t like either of these candidates a lot, at least we need a measure of leadership and confidence. And that often comes through in just how well you can command a moment.
Lee Carter:
I thought the language that the special prosecutor used, I was like, I just wish I could have a conversation with him about how long they spent on coming up with a phrase, he’s a well-intentioned elderly man with memory problems. It’s like that just was artful in its almost seemingly innocuous language that is actually gets to the heart of one of the biggest problems that Joe Biden has, which people think he’s too old to do the job. I think it’s really interesting. just yesterday in Congress, the special prosecutor was, it was, was in hearing and the, the Democrats played a whole host of flubs that Donald Trump has made, that are similar in nature and said, no, is he. Mentally, you know, would he be mentally fit? And I think the exercise didn’t necessarily, I don’t think it’s going to get legs, but I think that this constant comparing isn’t necessarily the smartest way of doing it. Well, this one is bad, so this one’s got to be this one. It just doesn’t, I don’t think it helps. But what I do think, I really did help Joe Biden in his daily union dress, and I think he should do more of this is, I was the youngest And I’ve been the oldest. I was 29 when I became senator and people didn’t think I was old enough to get in the elevator. Remember, like, and then he said, I’ve been on this side and that gives me wisdom to be able to lead us through this whole thing. And I thought leaning into it was really, it was really, really smart. Meanwhile, you’ve got Donald Trump. People do have concern about age, although not to the extent that Joe Biden has, but they still have concern about it. And he is so Trumpian about it. It’s just hilarious to me. And I know some people find, when Trump says these things, hilarious, and other people find it absolutely maddening. But he says, you know what? I can live to 200 if it weren’t for my life choices. I’ve never felt younger. In fact, you know, I felt…
Lee Carter:
I didn’t feel this good when I was 35. 10 years ago I didn’t feel as mentally sharp as I did today. He just goes right at it. And I think it’s fascinating how he does it. But I know it doesn’t resonate with everybody.
Ben Feller:
Well, you know, having covered Joe Biden when he was vice president, he has this phrase he uses all the time, It’s not hyperbole, folks, it’s not hyperbole. And with Trump, it is hyperbole, but he is so empowered to keep doing it because he’s not held accountable for it. So he said in a previous election, his supporters are so rabid that he could walk out on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone. And you would think in previous election cycles, that would be the kind of thing that would sink a candidate. And so now when he says something seemingly innocuous, like I can live to 200, instead of people reacting saying, well, that’s not actually true and you’re getting close to 80 yourself and you know, how in shape are you? Nobody asks those things because it’s part of Trump’s persona, like just to make these bold claims and it gets people fired up. I think going back to your Biden comments, the Biden White House was slow to really embrace this issue of age head on. Because Joe Biden is the oldest president. But now, both in that State of the Union speech and in the commercial sense, he’s leading with it. Yeah, I’ve been around for a while. And based on that, here’s what I’ve seen in the speech to the country. He said, the key difference is not how old you are, but how old your ideas are and pivoted to freedoms and looking ahead. It also reminded me, Lee, of a quote that some of our listeners of a certain age, like me, would remember, speaking of age, when Ronald Reagan was running against Walter Mondale, who was much younger. Reagan was, I think in his late 70s at the time, and was asked, are you going to have the stamina and the wherewithal of that version of mental acuity to handle tough situations? And he said, yes, I will. And I will not make age an issue of this election. I will not use my opponents youth and inexperience against him. And it was like, oh, he turned it on its head so much that Mondale was surprised and laughed. And it’s a quote that is carried for decades. And I think that’s part of what resonates with voters. Like, yeah, but even he admits it and he’s having fun with it. And I think that disarming nature is part of what Biden has sort of come around to, and we’re gonna hear more of it, but it took him a while.
Lee Carter:
It took him a while and I think sometimes it’s the length of time it takes for you to get in charge of the message for it to be resonant. And I worry that, I shouldn’t say that I worry, but I wonder if it’s too late because that narrative is just so entrenched that he’s, that the mental acuity argument is just really, really well established.
Ben Feller:
Well, part of, I think the way that we’ll know, and again, this comes from just talking about and covering a lot of elections and watching them closely as you have, is what matters to voters, what will matter to voters is actually what happens in March through October. And so as the campaign picks up, we’re going to see how much is Trump out there having extensive rallies and traveling the country. How much is Biden doing? What’s their body language as they walk up and off the stage? You know, how much are they remembering their speeches or getting lost? Are they quoting, referring to the leaders by the wrong names? All of these things are really gonna play out in the heart of the election. When I say the heart of the election, we’re pretty far down the road, but not to a lot of voters. They’re starting to pay attention now. And so their determination, of did Biden take the age, the right approach on age too late or too early? They’re starting to pay attention to it now. And so, and those moments, those defining moments of an election are, a lot of them are still to come.
Lee Carter:
Mm-hmm. So. Next, I want to move to an issue that Americans were saying was the number one issue now is not the number one issue in the vote and their decision on who they’re going to vote for, but that is the economy. And I think notable in recent speeches and in the State of the Union is that Joe Biden’s not using Bidenomics as much, but he is addressing the economy. Now, when people think about the economy, 55% think that Donald Trump’s gonna do a better job of the economy, 33% think that Joe Biden’s gonna do a better job on the economy. And I would make the argument that the reason for this is Donald Trump is very, very much focused on what I would call kitchen table issues, or those that people are talking about at home, talking about inflation. talk about how much things cost, how we can’t afford things, and comparing it to how much things cost when he was in office. And so people are remembering it was much cheaper to buy gas. And Joe Biden’s on his heels a little bit, because he’s saying, look, inflation’s come down. Except people are like, wait a minute. I’m spending 18% more on things today than I did before. I’m paying 21% more on my grocery bill than I did four years ago… Not the economy can’t have been stronger. It feels worse. you know, my wages aren’t going up. And Joe Biden keeps talking about things that I think are almost like we’re talking about how much things costing. He’s talking about the job numbers or he’s talking about these very academic measures of what makes a strong economy and people aren’t feeling it. And I feel like there’s a huge disconnect. And so you’re a lot of pundits out there talking about it from the, from the left saying, it just doesn’t make any sense because every academic measure says the economy’s never been stronger, that it should, we’re in a better place than anywhere else in the world and blah, blah. And Americans are going, yeah, but it feels so much worse. And I think that’s in large part, the Biden administration’s really struggled to capture how people are feeling.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, I mean, that’s the difference. And it goes to the heart of what we deal with in our work every day with all kinds of companies. It’s how it feels. And so the job picture right now is really strong at a numbers level. Unemployment is low, job creation is up. You know, most people, if you just look at it academically, who really want to work, can’t find work right now. And so generally speaking, that works in the favor of the incumbent and certainly works against them if things are going badly. I saw that in covering the end of President Bush’s tenure. But that doesn’t matter to voters if they’re not feeling it when they fill up their car when they go to the grocery store. So what I’ve always thought of is from a polling perspective, you look at all these numbers of who’s up and who’s down is how are you doing right now in your life in terms of do you feel financially secure? And if the answer is, I don’t feel very good, do you blame the person in office, even if it’s not their fault? And the answer to that is probably going to be yes. this could happen in reverse if Trump was in office and Biden was running. It’s this tendency, it’s a natural emotional tendency to say, I’m not where I want to be. I need something better. And who’s going to give me something better. And it’s often the person who’s out of office because they’re offering something. And so it is deeply frustrating to this administration that they’re not getting credit for the changes, especially coming out of a pandemic, but they also can’t win on rational arguments. Biden is gonna have to continue to make the case of how it feels to people and what he’s doing to try to make that even better. Going all the way back to the whole idea of if you’re gonna go buy some chips, you should probably get like a full bag, you know, and start talking in terms of the gallon of milk and those other things. And I think that’s where their economic message is going to go. I’ve seen this many, many times with people who run administrations is that they almost get mad at the media. You know, why aren’t you telling the story of this great American recovery? Biden did that in his State of the Union. You felt a little bit of friction there. He’s like, it’s the greatest, untold story about this American recovery happening. And it was a good applause line. But what he was saying is, if people only knew how well we were doing, my poll numbers would be up. And all of that is just a huge opportunity for Trump.
Lee Carter:
You know, it’s interesting because it’s the same argument most of our clients come to us with at the beginning. It’s like, if people only knew X, Y, and Z, they’d think differently about us. They’d be buying our product, they’d be whatever. And it’s like, no. You probably have a language problem because people aren’t hearing you. And it’s not their fault, it’s yours. And I think in this case, this is Joe Biden’s fault. He’s not being heard and he hasn’t gotten a message that’s gonna get traction and Donald Trump does. And I think that’s gonna be a big tough issue. Now, one more issue that I don’t think we talked about before today, but I want to just raise is the issue of immigration. And I think it’s fascinating because there’s polling that says that Trump wins on the economy and he also wins on immigration, except when you go policy by policy. Biden wins on immigration and Trump loses because policy by policy, Trump’s immigration policies aren’t as popular. And I think there’s been a lot of discussion lately about whether or not the Republicans’ refusal to do a deal on immigration is actually going to make them get the blame for immigration, as opposed to Joe Biden. And we haven’t seen that shift yet. There’s no poll that suggests that people are blaming anyone but Joe Biden for the immigration crisis. And in fact, it’s now the number one concern to voters. So what do you think about how Joe Biden is handling the immigration messaging?
Ben Feller:
Well, there’s a couple of layers to this. First of all, unlike some of the issues that we’ve talked about, including maybe even the economy, economy is personal in terms of how am I doing, but this as a topic, immigration is personal on a different level. It’s like a proxy in some ways for, are you with us or against us? What is the definition to be American? And you heard Biden talk about that a lot. So I think at some level, this plays to some of the worst instincts of political America which is like, who do you identify with? And the voters are gonna decide this on that issue. But if you step back from it and say, okay, just on a human level, is there a problem and who’s doing something about it? I think both parties have been struggling with this for so long, I think Biden can do a better job by just getting much more simple and plain spoken. There’s a problem at the border, there’s a problem in the immigration centers, there’s a problem in how we decide how somebody comes into the country, all of these things are like, we have to start with security and move through it. Now, what are we doing about it? I’m elected to get things done, so here’s what we did. And we lined up votes and there’s a bill that has bipartisan support. And Trump comes in and says, I don’t want Republicans voting for it because then I’ll lose the issue. And so I think Biden can actually, he had a line in the state of union to that effect of you can talk about fixing it or you can fix it. So that argument becomes stronger and more real for voters when you can point to something really specific, not in the weeds of legislation, but to say, you know, here’s a bill that would do these five things, and we had the votes and it’s ready to go. And for you to knowingly vote against something that you’re actually campaigning for is disingenuous to voters. And I think that’s where he’s gonna continue to go. But remember, you know, Trump has framed all of his elections on this issue, on, you know, keeping the wrong people out. And there is a sense of identification that a lot of Americans have with that because they conflate it in their minds with, I’m a forgotten person. You know, I’m at the back of the line, you’re letting people in who haven’t even paid their fair share. So I want the guy in there who’s gonna protect me, full stop. That’s how they think about it. And I think that’s a tougher issue for Democrats and what they’re doing is saying like, actually we’re a country that was founded on legal immigration but now the country’s under siege and we have to find a smart way to fix it. Don’t you want the people in office who are actually trying to do something about it? I think that’s where the debate’s gonna go. How do you see it playing out right now?
Lee Carter:
So I’m fascinated by the use of the executive order in this debate, because I often think executive orders, you know, they’re not wildly popular, people using executive orders. And Joe Biden came in office, he did a ton of executive orders, he reversed a lot of executive orders. Donald Trump ruled by executive orders, and basically a lot of people see that as an inability to govern, if you have to use executive orders. But I’m fascinated by Joe Biden’s refusal to use executive orders in this moment. Because one of the things that I’ve seen in polling is that we’re looking for a leader who’s willing to fight for the American people, somebody who’s really going to lead and who’s going to be tough on the issues. And I think he’s made his point long enough that Congress won’t act, that the Republicans won’t come along for the ride. But why will he not use an executive order in this moment and say, this is going to be my temporary what I’m going to do, because we can’t afford to let this go on? Because now, 85% of Americans believe that we are in crisis, and I’m not going to let it go unfixed that the Republicans are willing to play politics. I’m not. But the fact that he won’t use the executive order and he continues to blame Republicans makes me wonder how it’s gonna work for him. Because to me, it makes me wonder if people are gonna look at him as weak on it.
Ben Feller:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really interesting point and one that even as plainly as you laid it out, I think a lot of voters hear that and say, you’re still talking about Washington tactics. Like, are you going to protect me or not? And, you know, that’s why I think the symbol of building a wall was never even about whether they got the wall built. It was something that people could understand.
Lee Carter:
Yes. Totally.
Ben Feller:
Are you going to stop them from coming in or not? That’s sort of the language of symbols. And so legislation versus executive orders is a really important point. I think Biden’s belief on this was, if we’re going to do this, we have to do it all at once. It’s kind of the way that Biden and Obama think, a big systemic change like they did with health here. It’s incredibly hard. But he will, in fact, turn to executive orders if he wins again, because that’s all he’ll be left with. And I saw President Obama do this. One of the slogans he had in his second term, because he couldn’t get anything done with it, Republican Congress was, I’ve still got a pen and I’ve still got a phone, which was not a particularly alluring message. They would try out different ones. But what he meant was, I’m still the president. I can use my executive powers at least to time I’m in office. And nobody can stop me. And I’ve got a phone. I can work with anybody who will take my calls will try to get things done. And Biden is not going there yet, Lee, because he just doesn’t want to, right? Let’s continue to work through the legislative process and get people in here who want to fix things with me.
Lee Carter:
It’s going to be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next several months. I’m looking forward to lots more conversation. So one last question before we go, Ben. Of all the things we’ve talked about, what is the language that you’re going to be watching the most?
Ben Feller:
You know, I think when Biden was vice president, he and President Obama used this line of, Bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive. And they tried to get it down to one sentence, which is like, we killed the bad guy who attacked us and we saved the American auto industry. And both of those were like, we’ll keep you safe and we’re getting things done for the economy. And I think I’m looking to see which line, which sentiment really sticks for Biden as the kind of thing that he will be able to do what you and I have been talking about. How do I find that one’s winning sentiment that like it’s a symbol for if you give me a second term, I got you. And you know, finish the job which he started with, wasn’t it? It’s not it. Like people don’t care about what you get to do to finish the job. What are you doing for me? So I’m looking to see how Biden circles around kind of a winning praise and sentiment and, and you know, it’s vastly different for Trump because he gives two hour rallies that are just rants without a particular focus and they work really well for the people who support him. And there are a lot of them. They want that energy. They want that kind of Trumpism. But I think I’m also looking to see if there is one line or theme in this 2024 version of Trump that sticks for him too. So that key language moment, I think for both of them is still to come. How about you?
Lee Carter:
I agree with you on that. I’m really eager to see what the distillation is gonna be on the, certainly on the Biden side. I mean, Donald Trump’s still using his Make America Great Again, and he’s still, you know, the civil idea will fight for you, and the two-tier system of justice and all of those, that seem to be where he’s spending a lot of his time, but it’s gonna be interesting to see where it ends up, for sure.
Ben Feller:
Maybe we should we should just get our kids Sam and Maddie together and decide who’s winning. I’d listen to that.
Lee Carter:
Exactly. I know, me too, all day long. Hilarious, absolutely hilarious. I am curious if Sam was still up when Senator Britt did a Republican response, what he made of
Ben Feller:
He was not still up, although he caught up to the story as my young politico would do and not only knows what the senator said, but knows how Saturday Night Live, Peridot or he’s very current on political affairs and entertainment. Uh, but really Lee, what it all ended up to is what are they doing? What are they doing? Which is all anybody ever asked me when I both covered politics and since like, what are they doing?
Lee Carter:
Exactly. Good question, Sam. Good question. Well, thanks so much, Ben. This is a great conversation. Looking forward to a lot more to come over the next several months. It’s going to be both exhilarating and exhausting, I’m sure, for all of us. So for more language insights and to be in the loop on all the other fun stuff we’re doing, follow us on LinkedIn at Maslansky and Partners and join our mailing list at maslansky.com. That’s all for now. Stay tuned for more episodes of HearSay, because when it comes to truly effective communications, it’s not what you say, it’s what they hear.
